Ikeda: Many people in the world still know nothing of Nichiren Buddhism, or, if they have heard of it, seriously misunderstand it. Therefore, let us leave behind a record of our conversations for future generations — a record of which we can be proud.
Suda: In Japan, the Daishonin’s teachings, which were often exploited by militarist authorities, have been branded as ultra-nationalistic, but, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.
Ikeda: Yes. That is another reason for our discussion of the Lotus Sutra — to find the best way to communicate Nichiren Buddhism correctly to people around the world.
The Daishonin expounded the very essence of the Lotus Sutra, so studying it is the same as studying the Daishonin’s teachings. By the same token, studying the Daishonin’s teachings leads to an understanding of the Lotus Sutra. They are like two sides of the same coin. Consequently, when we discuss the Lotus Sutra, we are not simply studying the teachings of Shakyamuni. Looking toward the distant future, we are undertaking the far more challenging task of exploring Nichiren Daishonin’s teachings.
The teachings of Buddhism are profound, and it is often said that words cannot do them justice. Nevertheless, words are our only means of communicating them. I hope our discussion serves as an opportunity to introduce others to a proper understanding of the Daishonin’s teachings and that it will advance our efforts for worldwide propagation of his Buddhism and bring hope to people across the globe. This kind of dialogue, in a sense, is some thing we must work at throughout our entire lives.
Endo: What really impresses me about the reader responses to the serialized version of these discussions is the strong seeking spirit shown by members of the women’s and young women’s divisions. Their eagerness to learn and their desire for self-improvement a really wonderful.
Ikeda: That’s absolutely true. In fact, our men’s and young men’s division members are no match for them! The women of the SGI are pure-hearted and dedicated. Women are said to place importance on grasping the reality and substance of a thing than being satisfied with a merely conceptual understanding.
The benefits enjoyed by those who study Buddhism earnestly and share the teachings with others are enormous. They are certain to attain the level of great Buddhist scholars such as Shariputra in lifetime after lifetime.
Suda: I’d like to share with you a story cited by Dr. Hajime Nakamura, the renowned Japanese Buddhist scholar, about the active role played by female followers of Buddhism in ancient times:
“About one or two hundred years after Buddhism emerged, Greek ambassador of the king of Syria visited India and was astonished at what he observed there. “A surprising thing about India,” he exclaimed, “is that there are women philosophers who debate openly with men, propounding the most difficult arguments!”
Dr. Nakamura continues: “The appearance of an order of [Buddhist] nuns was an astonishing development in world religious history. No such female religious order existed in Europe, North Africa, West Asia, or East Asia at that time. Buddhism was the first religion to produce one.””
Ikeda: That women possess a solid command of philosophy, which they can articulate with confidence and eloquence, is a matter of common knowledge in today’s SGI, but back in those days, it was extremely rare for women to do so.
Saito: The status of women in ancient India was said to be nearly as low as that of slaves. Shakyamuni’s inclusion of women in the religious order he founded was a revolutionary act.
Endo: Calls for greater opportunities for women to become leaders in a variety of fields are now being heard in the religious world. For example, the Church of England recently ordained its first female priest, while a movement is under way to improve the status of nuns in the Roman Catholic Church.
Ikeda: The teachings of Buddhism were expounded for the happiness of all people; there is no discrimination based on sex, priestly or lay status, race, academic achievement, social position, power or wealth. In fact, Buddhism was expounded precisely to enable the discriminated and oppressed, those who have experienced the bitterest sufferings, to attain supreme happiness. This is the true power of Buddhism and the true wisdom of the Lotus Sutra.
Endo: Speaking of equality for women, the scriptures of Mahayana Buddhism, including the Lotus Sutra, make frequent use of the form of address “good men and good women.” This originally referred to men and women of good families and came to indicate men and women of the laity. The inclusion of “good women” on an equal footing with “good men” in this expression indicates the many active women followers in the orders of Mahayana Buddhism.
Ikeda: That seems reasonable, especially when we look at our present SGI women’s division. Returning to the expression “good men and good women,” I think it is used in the Lotus Sutra not to make a distinction between lay practitioners and priests but instead to transcend that division. I believe these men and women are referred to as “good,” not because they come from good families but because they have made the commitment to follow the path to Buddhahood set forth by Shakyamuni — in other words, the path to true independence as human beings and victory in life. “Good” here refers not to lineage but to goodness of intent.
Saito: I agree. In particular, in the sutra sections where Shakyamuni encourages upholding and propagating the scriptures after his death, he constantly addresses his listeners, “Good men and good women.” Unless they are truly committed people, whether lay practitioners or priests, they cannot carry out the difficult tasks of upholding and propagating the Lotus Sutra after Shakyamuni’s passing.
Ikeda: The Lotus Sutra is a scripture open to the people. It has remained alive over the centuries precisely because those who embraced and propagated it went amongst the people to expound its teachings.
Saito: Our theme today is the question: For whom was the Lotus Sutra expounded? I hope that through our discussion we can make it vividly clear that it is a scripture for the people.
Ikeda: This is a very important theme in trying to understand the true essence of the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren Daishonin discusses this issue in such writings as “The Object of Devotion for Observing the Mind” and “Choosing the Heart of the Lotus Sutra.”
Endo: In the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni expounds his teachings to different listeners. For example, in “Expedient Means” — the main chapter of the first half, that is, the theoretical teachings-he speaks to Shariputra, a voice-hearer (Skt shravaka; a person of learning). While in “Life Span” — the central chapter of the second half, that is, the essential teachings — Shakyamuni directs his discourse to Bodhisattva Maitreya. The important question is, to whom are these teachings of the Lotus Sutra directed as a whole?
Suda: In “Choosing the Heart of the Lotus Sutra,” Nichiren Daishonin says that “the ‘Life Span’ chapter and the halves of the two chapters that precede and follow it, was from beginning to end preached entirely for the people who live in the world after the passing of the Buddha. And among such people, it was preached for Nichiren and his followers, who are living today” (WND-2, 487).
Ikeda: In that assertion — that the sutra was taught for the sake of those living after Shakyamuni’s passing, for the people of the Latter Day of the Law — the compassion of the Lotus Sutra, which extends to all people, is apparent.
The Lotus Sutra teaches that the “one great reason” why Buddhas appear in the world — in other words, the supreme and ultimate purpose for the advent of Buddhas — is to enable all living beings to attain Buddhahood (LSOC, 64).
This goal cannot be accomplished unless the teachings preached by Shakyamuni are also effective for all those living after him, particularly those in the defiled age of the Latter Day of the Law. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the Buddha would fail to leave behind teachings for those living in later ages. The Lotus Sutra is the compassionate scripture he taught for precisely that reason.
Nichiren Daishonin read the Lotus Sutra with his life, revealing and propagating Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the Law implicit in this sutra, which is designed to enable all people to become happy. The Daishonin was the first to demonstrate how to realize the ideal of the Lotus Sutra to bring happiness to all people in the Latter Day of the Law, when the Buddha’s teachings were predicted to perish. Based on this awareness and conviction, the Daishonin could then declare that, of all the people in the Latter Day, the Lotus Sutra had been taught specifically for him. In that sense, it is possible for us to regard the Lotus Sutra as predicting the Daishonin’s appearance.
Suda: Only a heartless Buddha would fail to care about the fate of those living after him and refuse to teach them the path to happiness. The “Life Span” chapter speaks conclusively about the salvation of those who live after Shakyamuni’s passing. This is evident in the famous parable of the excellent physician and his sick children, expounded in this chapter.
Endo: The parable tells of a father who is an excellent physician. While he is away, his children drink poison, and he returns home to find them writhing on the ground in agony. The physician prepares medicine for his children, but they refuse to take it, for the poison has caused them to lose their minds.
The father then devises a plan to save his children. Leaving behind the medicine, he sets off on a journey. Reaching his destination, he sends a messenger to tell his children that he has died. They are so overcome with grief that they regain their senses, drink the medicine and are immediately cured.
The excellent physician is the Buddha, and the journey on which he departs represents the Buddha’s passing. Nichiren Daishonin further says that the children indicate the people living in the Latter Day of the Law, the good medicine is Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, and the messenger refers to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. In other words, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, the excellent medicine that saves all people after the Buddha’s passing, has been expounded in the “Life Span” chapter.
Ikeda: A Buddha is a person awakened to the reality of his or her being and, naturally, to the reality of all human life. That is the wisdom of the Buddha and the wisdom of the Lotus Sutra.
The Lotus Sutra was clearly expounded for all human beings, to enable them to attain true independence. It does not discriminate in any sense between priests and lay practitioners, men and women, rich and poor, persons of high and low status, or young and old. It is entirely for all humanity.
Saito: In the sutra known as his “declaration of propagation,” Shakyamuni states that he transmits the Law “for the happiness, benefit and peace of the people.” In Sanskrit texts of the Lotus Sutra, precisely the same words appear several times where the “one great reason” for Buddhas appearing in this world is explained. In the Chinese translation by Kumarajiva, who preferred brevity, these phrases are condensed into a single instance: to “benefit and bring peace and happiness to living beings in large measure” (LSOC, 65). This passage tells us that the Lotus Sutra was expounded for the true happiness and peace of all people.
Ikeda: Nichiren Daishonin writes: “If you chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with your whole heart, you will naturally become endowed with the Buddha’s thirty-two features and eighty characteristics. As the sutra says, ‘hoping to make all persons equal to me, without distinction between us'” (WND-1, 1030).
The Lotus Sutra teaches that all equally possess the potential for Buddhahood and that all have the ability to savor a state of absolute happiness. It is worth noting that Shakyamuni’s intent to make Buddhahood accessible to all people is revealed by the language he chose to preach the Buddhist teachings: the language of Magadha,” the everyday language of the common people.
Endo: Yes. Orthodox Brahmanism of the time insisted that the holy teachings could only be transmitted in the sacred language of the Vedas, a language used only by the upper, educated class. From ancient times, it had been forbidden to address people of lower castes or those outside the caste system, the untouchables, in this language.
Suda: On one occasion, two of Shakyamuni’s followers said to him: “By preaching the honorable and excellent teachings in the vernacular of the people, you harm the dignity of Buddhism. From now on, please preach in the noble and elevated language of the Vedas.” These followers were brothers, educated members of the Brahman caste, who had been so moved by Shakyamuni’s preaching response to their request, putting an end to the matter. It is evening that they had joined the order. “Never!” declared the Buddha said that he prescribed punishment for anyone who dared preach Buddhism in the language of the Vedas.
Ikeda: That episode clearly demonstrates Shakyamuni’s powerful desire to make Buddhism available to all, regardless of social class.
The Daishonin also wrote many of his letters to his lay practitioners in the Japanese phonetic script known as hiragana, so that they could read them easily. In other words, he used the language of the common people instead of the scholarly classical Chinese script used in formal writings in those days. It is well known that after his death, a number of high-ranking priests among his followers regarded these hiragana writings as an embarrassment and burned them or had the paper on which they were written reprocessed into fresh paper, obliterating the Daishonin’s writings.
Endo: You are speaking of the five disloyal senior priests. All of them were very close disciples of the Daishonin, yet this incident shows how little they understood his heart. Nikko Shonin, the Daishonin’s successor and the second high priest, discusses this in his “Guidelines for the Believers of the Fuji School” (GZ, 1604). He also states that at the time of the widespread propagation of Nichiren Buddhism, his writings should be translated into all the languages of the world (GZ, 1613).
Ikeda: The SGI is ensuring that Nikko Shonin’s wish becomes a reality.
It is no outstanding distinction to simply know what your teacher has taught; what matters most is the reason or purpose for which you know those teachings. Anyone can say, “My mentor’s teachings are wonderful!” But Nikko took the next step: “Since they’re so wonderful, I must share them with others, no matter what!” The five senior priests, on the other hand, thought themselves great simply because they knew of these magnificent teachings.
At first glance, it may appear that they all revere and respect their mentor, but the difference between the two types of disciples is as vast as that between heaven and earth, fire and water. It is important not to be mistaken on this point.
Mahayana Buddhism does not subscribe to a complicated list of rules of behavior or discipline with which to bind people. It the freedom and autonomy of the individual. However, respects when we hold the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism up before the mirror of the people, they offer an extremely demanding model of leadership. This is because irresponsibility is not permitted.
Suda: The Lotus Sutra — the pinnacle of Mahayana Buddhism — harshly criticizes corrupt and degenerate religious leaders and priests. There is a famous verse portion in the “Encouraging Devotion” chapter, which speaks of the three powerful enemies of Buddhism, describing priests who pretend to have attained enlightenment but are in fact in earnest pursuit of their own greedy desires (LSOC, 232-34).
Endo: There is also a well-known stone inscription of an edict by India’s King Ashoka, who lived about a century after Shakyamuni’s death, which says, “Drive corrupt priests from the Buddhist order!”
Ikeda: A sad but true fact we must solemnly recognize is that the corruption of priests began soon after Shakyamuni’s death. Religion is always in danger of growing apart from the people when its leaders forget to reflect carefully on their own behavior and come to look themselves as authorities. upon
Suda: Like Buddhism as a whole, the Lotus Sutra was also taught in the language of the people. Many Sanskrit versions of the Lotus Sutra exist today, and each of them is written in a style that incorporates vernacular elements of the different regions from which they originate. Buddhist scriptures, of course, did not begin as written texts; they were transmitted orally. As they were transmitted from person to person, over many years and through many countries, expressions unique to each region, time and people were incorporated into the scripture, and in the process many transcriptions, each with a distinct personality, were produced.
Endo: The expression “teacher of the Law” is another example of the people-oriented nature of the sutra. In the Lotus Sutra, a teacher of the Law is someone who propagates the Lotus Sutra after Shakyamuni’s death. The Japanese word hosshi is usually thought refer to a priest. Its original meaning, however, is simply “one who teaches the Law,” and it includes both priests and lay practitioners. In the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni addresses these teachers of the Law as “good men and good women” (LSOC, 200).
Suda: In fact, if we look at the origins of “teacher of the Law,” it was more likely to refer to a lay person than a priest. The Sanskrit rendering of this term is dharma-bhanaka: Dharma means “law” and bhanaka means “one who memorizes and recites the scriptures.” In some scriptures [such as the Daiji (Skt Mahavastu) Sutra, a writing on the Buddha’s advent and life], the bhanaka is described as a type of musical performer, including dancers and players of musical instruments. In the monastic tradition of Theravada Buddhism of those days, practitioners were forbidden to attend musical or theatrical performances, so the bhanaka are believed to have been lay persons not associated with Theravada Buddhism.
Saito: Many people tend to accept the premise that Buddhism distinguishes between priests and lay practitioners. In Japan, in particular, there is a strong preconception that Buddhism is a religion carried out by professional priests, where the laity make offerings to the priests and, in exchange, the priests pray for the laity.
The distinction between priests and laity, however, really reflects only the cultural situation in Indian society when Buddhism originated. It clearly has no basis in Buddhist teachings. The Buddhologist Kyosei Hayashima notes: “As far as the formation of the sangha (Buddhist order) is concerned, the division of the Buddha’s followers into priests and laity, both of which aimed for an identical ultimate goal, was no more than a reflection of the social structure of the time in which the Buddha lived.”
Endo: Nichiko, the fifty-ninth high priest of Nichiren Shoshu, remarked, “The distinction between priests and laity has always been a social convention, but it cannot be regarded as necessarily appropriate.” In other words, depending upon the age and the society, it may not be appropriate to distinguish between priests and laity.
Suda: There may have been some meaning in distinguishing between priests and laity when the laity had no detailed knowledge of religion and was forced to rely on priests as religious specialists, as it were. But today information and education are available to all members of society, and priests can no longer claim exclusive knowledge or authority in religious matters.
Saito: I think we should consider the distinction between priesthood and laity, between professional clerics and lay practitioners, not as one of essence but of function; not as one of rank but of roles.
Ikeda: We have no class of professional clerics in the SGI. Our members — all of whom live in the secular world — not only study Buddhist doctrine but are responsible for propagating the Daishonin’s teachings and performing various ceremonies and religious services. Ours is a religion in which ordinary people assume full responsibility.
The founder and first president of the Soka Gakkai, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi, called on us to be active practitioners, not passive believers, and we have rallied to his call.
In traditional religious institutions, a small group of professional clerics monopolizes authority, while the lay believers are called on to follow. That type of organization is definitely no longer appropriate to contemporary society as we approach the twenty-first century.
Endo: Even the Roman Catholic Church, which is governed by its priests, is beginning to grant substantial authority to lay believers, and their voices are having a profound effect on the institution as a whole. Religious bodies are moving irrevocably toward an increased respect for the laity and a broader recognition of its role.
The churches of the Japan Baptist Convention are another example. They have abolished their ministerial policy entirely. Twenty-five years ago, theologian Yoshinobu Kumazawa wrote of this development:
The minister, ensconced in his role in the clergy, knows the contradictions and changes of society only indirectly, through the believers. He does not confront them directly…. Sermons created by one who has no direct experience of the anxieties and sufferings borne by ordinary people in their daily lives will, naturally, not reach others’ hearts. Nor is there any opportunity for believers to challenge such sermons. A faith that changes society will not be stirred in the hearts of followers who only obey the authority of such ministers and remain spiritually dependent on them.
Since that passage was written, the idea of creating a lay Christianity, centered on the laity instead of the ministry, has been proposed by ministers themselves.
Ikeda: Only those out in the world who struggle daily with life’s realities understand others who face the same struggles. Inevitably, if religion is to make a serious attempt to open itself to the people, it must move away from an organization centered on a privileged class to one where the people are central.
Suda: “Is a priesthood necessary?” Zao Puchu, president of the Chinese Buddhist Association, has discussed this question. He concludes: “If one observes the causes and conditions of the Buddhist teaching and the causes and conditions of benefiting all living beings, it is not necessary to become a priest.” He continues: “Priests cannot assume the role of the individual in praying for blessings and preventing disasters, nor can they assume the role of God in granting blessings and forgiving sins.” And he observes: “Historically speaking, Buddhism did not flourish in the periods when there were the greatest number of priests. In fact, when there were too many priests, Buddhism declined.”
Ikeda: Dr. Zao has been a friend of mine since my first visit to China in 1974. He is a very well-known calligrapher and the vice chairman of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference.
We have discussed the Lotus Sutra together many times and for many hours, in China and in Tokyo. He is a master of each word and phrase of the text. When I say, “At that time the World-Honored One,” he replies with what comes next, “calmly arose from his samadhi” (LSOC, 56).
Saito: Four years ago, as a member of the First SGI Youth Cultural Exchange Delegation to China, I was fortunate to visit Mount Tiantai (Jpn T’ien-t’ai), where the great Chinese Buddhist teacher T’ien-t’ai lived.
Ikeda: It is the place of which Nichiren Daishonin writes, “On Mount T’ien-t’ai there is a place called the Dragon Gate, which is a waterfall a thousand feet in height” (WND-I, 1021).
Saito: Yes. It’s now called the Stone Bridge Waterfall. Halfway the waterfall a bridge spans it, and looking up from the bottom of the falls, it really does appear as if a dragon were rising through by President Zao reads: “May the Law Prosper Throughout the Ages” The bold strokes of the calligraphy vividly communicate his wish that Buddhism enrich and nourish the people forever.
Ikeda: Time and again, Dr. Zao has said to me: “Buddhism was originally closely connected to the people. That is why it is right for Buddhists to go out among the people.” He also told me: “When I visited Japan, I was shown a film of one of your culture festivals. I was deeply impressed by the vibrant energy of the ticipants, clear proof that the SGI is active among the people.” He sees the members of the SGI — a lay Buddhist organization — a manifesting the fundamental spirit of Buddhism to work the people.
Religion in the twenty-first century must provide people with the wisdom to be independent, to think and decide wisely for themselves how to live their lives.
Suda: Religion must move beyond its tendency to keep people in a childlike state, without the ability to think for themselves. Dr. Harvey Cox, chairman of the Department of Applied Theology at Harvard University’s School of Divinity, emphasized this point in an article he contributed to the Seikyo Shimbun.
In his book The Seduction of the Spirit, Dr. Cox writes, “In the final analysis it is always [ordinary people] who are the real bearers of religion.”
Ikeda: Dr. Cox went to school with American civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The two met during the bus boycott that began when Rosa Parks bravely refused to give up her seat to a white passenger in Montgomery, Alabama, in December 1955.
Endo: They belonged to the same Baptist church and remained comrades in the nonviolent struggle for civil rights for more than twelve years, until Dr. King was assassinated. They even spent time in prison together.
Ikeda: I will never forget Dr. Cox’s words the first time we spoke at Soka University [on May 2, 1992]. He stated that the ideals for which Dr. King lived and died were at one with the philosophy of Buddhism, on which the SGI is based. He went on to say that his personal goal was to realize that ideal, that system of values, in his own life.
Saito: Dr. Cox studied Christianity. In spite of the differences between the two religions, he felt a great affinity with Buddhism. Whether people have a prejudiced or a correct view of life cannot be measured by their religious denominations or to what doctrines they subscribe.
Ikeda: Nichiren Daishonin writes that some people come to a correct view of life through systems of thought and philosophies other than Buddhism. One who encounters the Lotus Sutra but is prejudiced and does not try to comprehend its true greatness is inferior, he asserts, to the wise men and saints of non-Buddhist teachings. He also writes, “When one knows the Lotus Sutra, one understands the meaning of all worldly affairs” (WND-1, 376).
The wisdom of the Lotus Sutra is a wisdom that improves society and brings happiness to the people. Unless it accomplishes those things, it is not real Buddhist wisdom. From a broader perspective, I think we can say all wisdom that improves the lot of the people, that contributes to their happiness, is the wisdom of the Lotus Sutra.
The Daishonin wrote of the ancient Chinese statesmen T’ai-kung Wang and Chang Liang, who defeated tyrants and brought relief to the people: “Though these men lived before the introduction of Buddhism, they helped the people as emissaries of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings. And though the adherents of the non-Buddhist scriptures were unaware of it, the wisdom of such men contained at heart the wisdom of Buddhism” (WND-I, 1121-22).
He is saying that even before Buddhism reached China, these individuals were applying Buddhist wisdom to help the people. Being based on the people. Being based on the people is the same as being based on humanity. This focus on the welfare of humanity shines with a brilliance that transcends sectarianism and distinctions of priesthood and laity.
“What can I, an ordinary human being, do for others, for society?” That is the spirit of the Lotus Sutra. A religion for the people in the twenty-first century must be an inexhaustible source of such awareness and the energy to carry it out.
The poet of the people, Walt Whitman, writes:
Why what have you thought of yourself?
Is it you then that thought yourself less?
Is it you that thought the President greater than you?
Or the rich better off than you? or the educated wiser than you?
And in another poem:
What do you suppose I would intimate to you in a hundred ways, but that man or woman is as good as God?
And that there is no God any more divine than Yourself?
“Yourself” here can also be read as life — this is the realm of Buddhism and the world of the Lotus Sutra. Nothing is greater or worthier of respect than you yourself — this is the message that the Lotus Sutra calls out to every individual.